The Natural by Bernard Malamud

OK, so now that you know to look for things to analyze, synthesize and evaluate, what do you think of the book? Remember, we are not discussing plot here. Don't just summarize plot (and don't repeat stuff anyone can read on sparknotes!).

Comments

Charlotte Jones said…
After reading the assigned section of "The Natural" I actually understood what I read. But I am have a difficult time understanding how this book is reference to King Arthur. There is a lot more color references in this section. (last paragraph in pg. 106- 107) The Cloth that Roy is holding its changing to different colors (ex. purple, red, and yellow) I am very confused as to what was going on in that particular part in the book. someone help!
Charlotte Jones said…
One more thing. lol what is RBIs i figured it was a baseball term? But it have no clue what it means?
Kayla said…
Charlotte, the King Arthur references are here and there in this book. One example is that Roy's bat is his sword. Also another example that can be found in the last paragraph on pg. 77 is talking about the Redbirds pelting Roy's armor. RBI means runs batted in.
Najee said…
Starting at pg.80 I noticed a lot of water and colors mentioned. I realized that when Roy is playing good ball it rains and the rain brings the green grass and the team is playing better, but I'm still confused at what tears are a reference to. I have a feeling that it means sorrow or grief but it might stand for something else. I have a good feeling at what the colors mean. I think that the black represents death and the red represents love. I find the colors quite interesting.
Catie said…
Najee, your inference of rain is right, in my opinion. When Roy comes to the field and gets his first hit, it starts to rain. This symbolizes the dryness and the need for improvement that the team required to succeed. The field turns green after Roy arrives. In addition, what is the use of so many Bird references? The only thing I can think of is that when Roy does something right, he catches the bird and hurts it, then whenever he gets shot by Harriet Bird, the bird reference is used in a negative way.
Alex Fernandez said…
So with what Catie said, does the bird reference have anything to do with how every time he finally does something right something negative comes along? Like when he is wanting to further his experience in baseball he goes on the train but then gets shot in the end. And now that he is playing and doing good, he catches the bird and gets hurt?
Mellissa said…
Alex, I think that you might be on to something, that the bird probably is a bad omen of sorts for Roy. It wouldn't just be a coincidence, the bird has a meaning, so this may be it.
Paige Lemily said…
Yes, Meliissa, Roy has had his share of bad luck. Now though, I believe Pop will coach and guide him into the right direction. At first, I wasn't understand why he had such a problem with using the bat that was made by the tree, but now it's all tying together. So, Roy needs to take in Pop's wisdom to better himself and the team.
Muriel said…
Mellissa and Alex, i kind of agree and dissagree with you about the bad bird omen. I agree that these birds have all caused Roy some sort of trouble. But i believe the colors that are represented by them are so much diffferent. Harriet had a white rose, which i believed to have meant funeral or death. Then on the other hand roy caught a canary in his glove. Canaries are yellow. I think yellow is a good omen. Roy sees alot of yellow. I believe the yellow represents piecies of Roys future.
Kyndel101 said…
Yea he couldn't use the bat because Pop was showing his dominance. I think that sometimes Roy trys to do his own thing but Pop doesn't really like that and puts Roy in line maybe? And also about the colors I don't really understand what they all mean but I think it's really cool how Malamud had a reason for all of the colors he picked to use.
Okay, so I know that I haven't been to class in forever, but I am TRYING to keep up. I tried to read while sick, but it was really hard, too many distractions, anyways, over my pity party. What I did get out of what I read was all the colors, birds, water, etc. Same stuff you all got. Charlotte, I had to "Google" what RBIs were too, they are Runs Batted In, it is like a statistic to explain the batter's performance, the more RBIs the better. I am also having trouble with the King Arthur references. All in all, I see how the colors represent a lot of things, and birds are a sign of bad things.
Black = Death, Water = Life, Winter = Death, Spring = Life coming back, Summer = Climax of Life, Birds = are BAD.
That's all I got for now.
Shanequia said…
Okay,I agree with Courtney even though I've been in class. It's still kind of hard to follow everything. But, by reading everyone's post I've become very clear with alot of things like the baseball terms and the colors. But, I remember in class najee mentioning that everything associated with white was bad? It was considered an ironic type of thing? That's the only thing I'm a little lost with. I'm still not understanding what water and the train imagery has to do with king Arthur though.
c.harris35 said…
Shanequa and Courtney,After watching some of the King Arthur videos on Mrs.Colley's website I understand the references in the book a lot better, so you might want to check those out. For example, A main thing I pick up on now is the water references are Roy because in King Arthur, the Fisher King (Pop Fisher) was longing for water. Which, I think represents his needing of a young apprentice,King Arthur(roy). Just like Pop Fisher needs and wants Roy.
c.harris35 said…
Kyndel, I don't think it was necessarily dominance,more likely showing his wisdom and wanting Roy to use the same bat as the rest of the team so he would be more of a team player.
muriel said…
What is with Roy seeing this boy and his dog? When Memo was running from the cops in Roy's car she hit what Roy thought was a boy with his dog. Could this represent Roy's childhood coming to an abrupt hault all those years ago? Oh,and why is Roy chasing after Memo when she doesn't even care for him? She seems like major trouble..like i said earlier. Man these female influeces are killing our " Hero".
Charlotte Jones said…
Muriel, I am totally agreeing with you. I was thinking that maybe Roy likes the chase of Memo. For the next section (126-180) I have met Iris Lemon(lemon/color refrence?)When Roy sees her for the first time, she wearing a red dress with a white flower in her head. So Iam wondering if she is going to be a influence on him and does she represent innonace and evil? And did Roy make an home run for the little boy in the hospital? Does this mean that the his slump is coming to an end?
Kyndel said…
I agree whith both of you guys Muriel and Charlotte and I think it is funny how she has a red dress and a white rose when he meets her and I am also wondering what that means like you said Charlotte evil or innocence? ALso I do think like you said Charlotte that Roy is slowly coming out of a slump.
djsmith said…
Thanks for the summary of the colors Courtney. I'm re-reading now and starting to see and understand the book differently. As far as the King Arthur references go I'm only seeing small hints, if Miss Colley hadn't said anything about it id just think the Arthur liked the Middle Ages.
Jacob Sellers said…
I agree with Derrick. The more I reread certain sections of the book, more of the colors and references appear to me. However, the King Arthur highlights in the book are still kind of sketchy. Maybe as the book goes on, the references will become more obvious to me.
Kayla said…
I have noticed that everytime Roy does good, people have needed him to save them. Like the Knights needed someone to save their team and he changed them into a winning team. Also when he hit a homerun to save a little boy's life. That could explain why he wasn't able to hit or play good because he wasn't needed by anyone at the time.
Alex Fernandez said…
So after what Kayla just said, would it be like a knight, as in they aren't really useful until needed? Because if you think of it, without a purpose a knight has no use. So without Roy needing to help someone out, he isn't very good at anything and isn't in any use for the team. I'm honestly lost about all this.
Paige Lemily said…
I'm going to have to disagree with you for now, Kayla. On the whole knight debate, I think just maybe you're reading too far into it. I always believed knights were more of a stable, strong hero that were always around, not just when they "were needed".
Najee said…
I'm going to agree with Kayla and Alex. Roy does good when he is needed. When Roy came to the Knights they needed him to save them from being terrible team and when the little boy is in the hospital Roy plays good. Also Iris "Lemon" drew attention to me automatically. I wonder if she will be a positive or negative influence because of the mixtures of the colors red, yellow, and white.
Tyler Miller said…
In response to what kayla said I would have to agree with alex because the times when roy really stands out is when he is needed but when he isnt needed i sort of feel like he doesnt try as hard.
Breeana said…
To be honest, I don't at all understand the King Arthur references. The colors don't make sense to me. For instance, why did the cloth that Roy holds turn many different colors? I do however understand that his sword is the baseball bat. Other than that, I'm clueless.
Kevin Guinn said…
I have a comment for Kayla and everyone else that responded to that comment, from a baseball players perspective. We are expected to perform our best when we play the best opponents. So when Roy doesn't have anything to save, his amazing talent doesn't show as much as when he needs to save someone or the team.
The last thing i have read about is Iris "lemon", this is another color reference and i would like to know if anybody has any idea if yellow is a good or a bad thing?
Catie Trammell said…
I agree with Najee, the whole “Knight” allusion is best described when Roy comes to the rescue so to speak for the team in the beginning. Adding to what Paige and Kevin both said, Knights, like soldiers or teammates, are always training for improvement which makes them “stable, strong heros that were always around”, but when they are “needed” they also come to the rescue, hopefully bringing all they encompass, and that’s what Roy does on many occasions in the book.
Shanequia Jones said…
At first, I didn't quite understand the whole illusion of the "knight". I didn't understand what the inference of the knight had to do with anything until I read Catie's post. Which now, I understand the knight inference. Now, after getting that insight, I'm better understanding the book. I knew Roy was supposed to be some type of hero, but I didn't quite connect all of it until now!
Kayla said…
Kevin to your yellow comment, I believe that it is not a bad or good sign. It just may be a sign that something is about to happen. Like before when the Doctor gets on the train with a yellow telegram saying that someone needed a doctor which Sam ended up needing but died. Also when Roy first shows up wearing a yellow baseball suit which could of been a sign that Roy would save the team and theres Iris "Lemon"
c.harris35 said…
I don't know why but for some reason on this reading section I have had the hardest time seeing the King Arthur references.Is it just me? I have had questions about everything: The colors, the relationships between the character and King Arthur, and everything else in this section.Sorry to be so vague, but will someone please EXPLAIN!!!!
Wayne Livingston said…
@ C. Harris
Maybe you aren't looking at the book in the right way. Or myabe you are not familiar with the King Arthur Tales. I have found a couple references without assistance, but some references had to be pointed to me though. For example, Roy's bat was called a lance early in the book. There was also Roy's "duel" with the Whammer. Try to keep a keen eye on themes and anything vaugely related to medieval times.
Mrs. Colley said…
OK, OK, OK! You guys are killing me. Give up on the King Arthur business already! So many of you are posting nothing. . .you don't "see" the King ARthur references. Stop saying that, OK??? You are not supposed to read and look for King ARthur references. You are supposed to read so you can analyze te book. Don't read a book trying to stuff everything into one interpretation. Just read the book and keep your double entry journals. . .what things are you noticing that strike you as you read? Forget King Arthur. No one has commented on the fact that Bump and Roy were almost interchangeable (re-read the part about Memo thinking she was "with" Bump when it was Roy). Bump dies, Roy takes his place. Takes his girl. What do you think that means? (Forget King Arthur!) Why does Memo wreck Roy's car? (Forget King Arthur) Why is the lake polluted that Memo and Roy go to? Why is Memo related to Pop Fisher? Why does he disapprove of her? What about the swim scene with Iris and Roy? (Forget King Arthur) Why doe Malamud give Iris a "past"? None of you have commented on the Judge's office either. Pay attention to its description. And forget King Arthur!
Kayla: I loved your comments about yellow. Even if you don't have a complete explanation for all the yellow things, at least you are noticing that Malamud sprinkles yellow throughout. Sometimes you have to finish the book and look back to be able to understand something. (and sometimes you never understand, which is OK, too). Alex: I loved your observations about "needing" a knight. (Sorry, Paige, but I'm with Alex and Kayla on this one.) I'll be interested to see what you think about Roy overeating and ending up in the maternity ward of the hospital. And forget King Arthur. Just read. But don't forget those double entry journals. . .you will need them.
Charlotte Jones said…
After reading Mrs. Colley comment and going over the book again. I am no longer worried about the King Arthur references lol. But I am confused as to what happened to Iris Lemon? Seems like she kinda disappears after her and roy spent time at the lake? Memo is back in the picture, which to me seems like a bad thing because she isn't a good influence on Roy.I also Notice she is still wearing black. Roy and Gus really don't like each other but the tolerate one another when there are with memo? What does this mean?
Charlotte Jones said…
Well, I've finished the book, and I am left with so many questions... 1) What happened to Iris Lemon? Seems like she showed up for there little date at the lake and she kind of disappeared, then she pops up at Roy's last baseball game when she gets hits with the ball? 2)what are d.p's? I'm guessing they are a baseball term but I have no clue what that means? Also I now see when the clouds were out and the sun wasn't shinning they weren't doing the best during the game. But when the sun was shinning Roy starts to feel a little bit better and gets a little stronger when he is getting ready to bat. Roy finally sees what type of person Memo is Thank God! Seems like she has been bringing him down since he met her. Also so many water references, when Roy digs the hole to put his bat in, he wants to go get water from the fountain to pour over the buried bat because he wished that it would grow into a tree but its dark and he didn't think he could find it. Also when he goes into the locker to change no one is in there and the only thing he hears is the dripping water from the shower. The water references really got my attention because the water references to me seemed like a symbol of either peace or sorrow. I hope someone can help me better understand these questions!
Alex Fernandez said…
I think I'm going to have to agree with Charlotte. I did notice all the water references at the end but I'm not sure "sorrow" is the word for it. I've read the book but am still kind of lost. Most of the things Charlotte has said I've wondered or had questions about also. Help!
Muriel said…
Charlotte and Alex, I have also finished the book and i believe the water references symbolize a sort of purity or remembrence. I'm not quite sure which one. On the other hand I totally agree with you Charlotte,about Memo. I suppose all " Heroes" have their faults. Also I want to know why water plays such an important role in Roy's life? Any input?
Kayla said…
I think that water may be a sign for growth or life. For exmple: when Roy and Iris went swimming she ended up getting pregnant, then when Roy buried his bat he wanted to put water on it to help it grow, and when he was in the locker room he heard the dripping of water in the shower could of been a sign for his career being over or coming to a stop.
Najee said…
I found throughout the book that water has many different meanings and it isn't focused on one particular meaning like the colors do. The color black has a negative meaning and Memo is always wearing black. Whenever I read about Memo and Roy together I get the feeling that something negative is going to happen to Roy. It is interesting that Iris isn't mentioned in the book anymore. What happened to her?
sarahr. said…
I agree with Najee. The references to water seem to have different meanings. And I also don't understand what happened to Iris? The book just totally stops talking about her. I read the book, but have no idea what most of it means. I even tried reading some of the Sparknotes to help. I'm lost!
Jacob Sellers said…
I do believe Najee is on top of the color ordeal. However, if memo is negative and terrible, why does Roy continue to go after her? Is it because he feels threatened by bumb? Is he just trying to out-do him? I do understand what you are saying about Iris disappearing.... but she does come back in the end telling Roy about his kid. The thing that is still not connecting with me is why he waited so long to read Iris's letter. Was he that captivated by Memo? Or was he trying to deny the fact that Iris was truly the woman he was looking for?
Mellissa said…
Around page 180, i believe, hamburgers were referred to as "six dead birds". I think that the birds were almost a warning of sorts to Roy to not eat them, seeing as he went into the hospital that night, they didn't seem to be a good sign. Then, a little later, when Roy is going up to bat, the upset remarks toward Roy were referred to as "boo birds".
Also, I noticed, that every time Roy stumbles upon the letter from Iris with his fingers somewhere, Memo is always right there to stop him from reading it. It's not until Memo isn't there or asleep, that Roy takes the time to read it. Yes, he waited until he couldn't sleep to read it, but I noticed Memo wasn't around to stop him either. Not sure what that means, could mean that Roy is easily distracted by what is in front of him instead of what is really important to him. I'm also really confused on why Roy is so upset about Iris referring to herself as a grandmother, why does that upset him so much?
Also, I noticed that for Memo, he's willing to get money and lose the game, just to please her. But when Iris shows back up at the game, he can't help but win the game because it seems like everything is back in place and him winning is the right thing to do.
Mellissa said…
he can't help but try to win the game* (sorry mistyped)
Nathan T. said…
To an obeservation of the bird refrences in the book, in my opinion they seemed like a metaphor for hope. With birds being brought up in optimistic or pessimistic ways, they changed how the story was perceived. Also with the women that came into Roy's life after the incident, Memo(An antagonist) wanted more out of Roy to fit her selfish lifestyle while Iris(An protagonist) sought out to him for his love...A meaningful relationship. When Memo was on Roy's mind, he was confound and focused on the wrong things. Even though he sought out for Memo, he should of been going for Iris. What was the symbolism behind Roy's bitter tears at the end of the book???
Charlotte Jones said…
I agree with Mellissa's post about Memo distracting Roy every time he tried to read the letter. In my opinion Pop Fisher was right, when he told Roy to not get so close memo because she wasn't good news. I also agree with Jacob because my it did seem like Roy wouldn't let himself get too close to Iris because he seems scared of the feelings he was growing for her so quickly. Also i think Roy kept running after Memo because he like the thrill of the chase. He was the best at baseball and everybody loved him so he wanted the best in a woman and because memo would chase him away sometimes he felt she was what he needed.
Wayne Livingston said…
I found it very intersting when Roy went into a slump. Something's definitely eating him, but even he doesn't know it. I think it's beacuse of girl problems with Memo. I liked how during a later game, Roy's bat Wonderboy was called a "saggy baloney", but when he notices the dark haired lady, roy hits a home run and the bat becomes strong again. Interesting metaphor there.

Another thing I noticed was Roy's obsession with Memo. It's crazy how he is all over her, but she always turns him down. Doesn't he know that girl is poison? His lust for her is keeping him from being his best. As heroic as he seems, Roy is definitely far from being Superman.
djsmith said…
@ Wayne Livingston

I disagree with you about Roy being far from Superman. Like most if not all hero's a love interest is often a distraction. And not only hero's but men in general , for whatever reason seem to like what we cant have. Also I didn't notice that metaphor before made me giggle lol.
Johny N. said…
I feel like the water represents something along the lines of life, as previously stated by Kayla and and Najee. It seems through out the when water is present when something new begins. For example, I t rains after Roy wins that first big game and the water brings life to the field as well as the crowd and team. water is also present when ending a life as well, like when Roy say that the bullet that shot him cut through the water by which he means his life. I'm also convinced that water has something to do with women. Roy saw a women with read hair,Memo,in water when he is hypnotized. On Roy's date with Memo, they visit a dirty lake. If the water means life and also had some kind of relation to women, then the dirty water may have been showing that Roy and Memo didn't have a future together. When Roy goes to the lake with Iris, it is clean and that shows that they can be together. It took me a while to piece this together but the post I mentioned earlier helped me quite a bit and I understood the symbolism of water better.
Tyler Miller said…
What I thought was interesting was the way the book ended with roy being struck out by a new young pitcher even though it wasnt his choice its like he was passing on the torch for the next person to become the next best player as he did much earlier with defeating the whammer. Its like completing a cycle.
Kevin said…
Mellissa I ran into the same thing about why Roy gets bothered so much when Iris talks about being a grandmother. In the start he has a lot of trouble getting into major league baseball. So when he got into the league he was old and this entire time he has been faced with the adversity of being older than the rest of the players. So by now in the book he is much older and he still wants to be a young baseball player that has a strong future. Everytime when Iris talks about being a grandmother it makes Roy think about how old he really is and how he doesn't have a future.
Catie Trammell said…
Adding to what Tyler said, I agree with the whole cycle thing. Whenever Iris talks about being a grandmother, it makes him feel as if he is getting older, and leaving the game of baseball behind. I agree with the theory that it all starts back over just like when Roy came to play for the team.
Breeana said…
I agree with Johny. I think the water represents life. After Roy won his game it rained and it brightened everyones spirit. The book said when Roy was shot the bullet cut through the water.mIt leads me to believe that water also represents death but I think it showed up in the book more to brighten things up. I'm also convinced that water has something to do with women. When Roy went on a date with Memo, they saw a dirty lake. Johny said it may mean that Roy and Memo didnt't have a future together, but I think its just the opposite. Roy went to the lake with Iris and she ended up pregnant and that to me is a good thing. The waters symbolism is all over the book.
Paige Lemily said…
To be honest, I believe I'm over analyzing things that are not of importance. Which is probably making it hard to see the big picture. I do however understand, and agree on the whole cycle theory that everyone has mentioned. Iris is having a huge impact, not that I'm sure why right now.
Shanequia Jones said…
Hello all! I Agree with Paige. During the whole entire book I was trying to compare it to King Aurthur. I missed the "Whole" point of the book. Because, with everything I tried to compare it in some sort of way. The book was hard for me to follow, probably because, I don't know the King Aurthur story only the bits and pieces I've learned in class. I think maybe, if I would've let go of the whole King Aurthur thing I would've enjoyed or at least understood it a little more.
So, I agree with everyone. I only caught the King Arthur concept a few times throughout the whole book. When Mrs. Colley would explain them, I would catch on, but otherwise not so much. I hated the ending of this book. I feel that the "hero" in this book, wasn't even very heroic. Every story is supposed to have this significant hero, this story did not have that in my opinion. I feel that Roy was a nasty character. I will say that Bernard is a very talented writer. I wish I could write just half as good as he can. I don't have much to say, due to my dislike of the book. I just hope the movie is better!
Mrs. Colley said…
Charlotte: RBI's are "runs batted in." It's important in baseball to score, but it's also important to hit so someone else can score.
To everyone else: Why does Roy decide to accept Judge Banner's money and throw the game? (Why does Memo want him to? Why does Pop dislike Memo even though she is his blood relative? Why does Max Mercy hound Roy?)
Mrs. Colley said…
So maybe it's like this: Roy is a hero, with an exceptional gift and supernatural help. But he is flawed by a bad incident (getting shot while showing off). He is sidetracked from his dream (and we have little history of what he does during those "lost" years.) He shows up as the Knights' savior, someone who can lift the dying team into a race for the pennant. He replaces Bump, a guy that he is almost a twin for (notice that Bump is corrupt and dates a corrupt girl). The team is guided by Pop Fisher, who lovingingly hangs onto the special, sacred feeling of baseball. All he wants is to win the division pennant (he acknowledges toward the end of the book that he will never win a World Series. . .it just isn't going to happen for him). Pop is all that is good about baseball; Judge Banner is the corruption (notice the description of his office). Sundry other characters pose threats to the purity of baseball (gambling and being on the take). Iris comes along and offers Roy purity and inspiration. But she is flawed to Roy. . .she is "old," a grandmother. He rejects her and goes for the glittery field of money offered by the Judge. Despite the fact that the entire team depends upon him and that he has the power to "save" them all, he succumbs to evil. Hollywood changed the ending in the movie so Roy rejects the evil, hits a homerun, sacrifices himself for his teammates, and in so doing, almost kills himself. The book ends on a much darker note than that. It reflects the lost innocence and hope similar to that of King Arthur's Camelot. A utopia just cannot exist; there is too much corruption opposing it, depsite the efforts of people like Sam and Pop, despite the aspirations of players like Roy, who just wanted to be the best there ever was.
France said…
The Natural, is an excellent book because of the valuable lessons that the reader learns from reading the book. Bernard Malamud creates very realistic characters in a realistic plot to teach the reader that you need to step up to the plate in order to be successful in life. In the beginning of the story, Roy uses his inexperience to strike out the Whammer, who at the time was one of the greatest baseball players in the world. Unfortunately, Roy is shot by a woman, keeping him out of baseball for fifteen years. When he returns to baseball at the age of 34, he joins the struggling New York Knights and leads them to win the pennant. The conflict in the story that makes it a good read is that Roy is very susceptible to women and this causes him to go into a slump. At the end of the book, Roy is now faced with a phenomenal rookie, who symbolizes Roy when he was young. Roy is unable to step up to the plate, and the rookie pitcher ends up striking out Roy, showing that Roy had given up on baseball and on life. I definitely recommend this book to anyone who wants to read it because it is not just about baseball, but it is about valuable lessons in life that Roy learns in order to be successful in the real world.

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